The Unbearably Sad Reality of India

Yesterday’s Wall Street Journal reported how the US is pressuring India to (what effectively is) surrender its interests to Pakistan’s whims. “U.S. Aims to Ease India-Pakistan Tension“. Why? Because Pakistan presented to the US administration “a litany of accusations against the Indian government,” and suggested “the U.S. intercede on Pakistan’s behalf.” Which the US is in essence doing.

That little news item doesn’t reveal anything spectacularly new. In practically all matters having to do with Pakistan, the US treats India with barely concealed contempt and makes sure to equate India with — and at times relegate India below — Pakistan. Pakistan whines and the US tells India to “stop it.”

I have seen this happen at the family level. Seven year old girl being seriously bothered by a very bratty five year old brother. Finally she tells him off and he starts crying. Mother comes into the room and gives the girl a beating. Over repeated instances the girl comes to believe that she’s at fault and soon enough learns that she is a girl and has to do what the boy says because the mother will always favor the boy over the girl.

Like all analogies, it is not an exact fit but it is close enough.

India and Pakistan have been dependent on the US for over half a century. India had to go with a begging bowl to the US when starvation stared it in the face. India begs for technology from the US. It begs the US to sell it arms. The US demonstrates who is the boss by withholding favors and then after a great deal of groveling by India, granting them with great fanfare and making sure that they come with strings attached. And to really rub it in, the US cultivates Pakistan as its client state and gives it aid amounting to billions of dollars so that it can continue to limp along and be a dagger at India’s side.

It could have been otherwise. India could have been more powerful than China is today and if that has been so, the US would have treated India with respect, like it does China today. There was nothing in the stars that condemned India to being an irrelevant third world country with delusions of becoming an “economic superpower.” Nothing except the leadership. Starting with Nehru (the Nabob of Cluelessness), and continuing on to his daughter (eventually a dictator who was outsmarted by the Pakis), then on to his grandson, and then to his grandson’s Italian wife — they all have systematically dug a hole so deep for India that it is hard to tell if they or the Pakistanis are the real enemy.

Here’s a post I published on Nov 23, 2009 which is relevant here:

The evil that men do lives after them. That’s Shakespeare’s conjecture. The remaining good bits can be buried in a matchbox. That’s with apologies to Christopher Hitchens.

In 1947, the men who took command of India did many things. Sixty-two years later, what they did lives on. India had great promise. It could have become at least a second world economy (per capita income of over $10,000 per annum) and – given its huge population of over a billion – it could have been a formidable economic force.

Where’s India actually? China and the US are the world’s “two leading powers,” wrote our favourite NYT columnist Thomas L Friedman. How much more blatantly obvious can it be that India does not bat in the big league when even Tom Friedman figures it out.

How irrelevant is India? The US president in a speech delivered recently in Tokyo on US relations in Asia did not even mention India. China matters because China is rich compared to India. The leaders of China figured out that communism leads to poverty and decided to develop their economy. Its leaders chose the right policies and China became the manufacturing superpower of the world. The US goes to China with a begging bowl in its hands. The US knows that the US dollar continues to limp along instead of crashing only at the pleasure of China.

China is powerful. It dictates to the US president whom he can meet and whom he cannot. The Dalai Lama was not welcome to the White House recently – the first time this has happened. But China has been telling the US what to do for a while now. It’s becoming more obvious.

You may recall that Bill Clinton also bowed to the demands of the Chinese leaders when he was the president. He had wanted to make a quick stop in India on his way to visit China. The Chinese told him that he need not bother coming to China if he was going to stop however briefly in India. When you come to China, come to China only, they told him. Clinton said, yes Sir.

When China says jump, the US politely asks how high.

A little later came Clinton’s visit to India. He decided that he will stop by Pakistan on his way back from India. India begged him to not do so. India begged, not demanded. He told India to shove it and stopped in Pakistan.

India is powerless. The Washington Post reports “two missteps” by the US in relation to India. Misstep is a nice – what’s the word that I am looking for – circumlocution. Or maybe euphemism. Whatever. Misstep is when without intending to, you hurt someone’s toe; a couple of tight slaps on the face is not a misstep. Anyone with half a brain can tell it is calculated and deliberate. India has to silently endure the indignity that the US routinely subjects it to.

Why does the US do so to India? I don’t know but it could have something to do with India’s relationship with the US since (India’s) independence. India’s sainted dear leader allied India with the USSR and against the US. The US is unlikely to forget that.

But there’s another reason. India has to suffer indignities because it is poor. India is poor because its policies suck. India has bad policies because it got bad leaders right from the start.

One cannot fault small countries such as say, Burundi or Zambia, for not being a world power. They just don’t have the population, the human capital, the size or the natural resources for that. No one expects small marginal countries to be of any consequence.

But India had (almost) all the necessary components for becoming a nation of some consequence in a few decades after independence. What it did not have was enlightened leadership. The names of those leaders – leaders that through their abysmal stupidity, short-sightedness, arrogance and ignorance made India virtually irrelevant – can be found in the tens thousands of institutions, government schemes, roads, ports, airports and universities named after them in India.

Are those leaders alone to blame? Actually no. Leadership is largely endogenous and reflects the nature of the population. The ultimate cause of poverty of any large group is the group itself.

Sometimes, just by the luck of the draw, some states, large or small, get good leaders. The US had great luck when it became independent in 1776. Intellectual giants – Franklin, Jefferson – guided the nation. Singapore, a tiny nation of absolutely no special promise, got Lee Kuan Yew and became a powerful country. Enlightened leadership makes a difference.

India too got an authoritarian dictator at its independence. What was missing was enlightened leadership.

As an Indian, I feel envious of the power that China has and uses ruthlessly. Even when it was just another extremely poor country, it gave India a drubbing in 1962. China had been provoked by the hubris of Indian leaders. Now that it has trillions of dollars in the bank and has the US kowtowing to it, China can severely damage India. Arunachal Pradesh is as good as gone. China is encircling India. Nepal, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Pakistan.

What’s depressing is that India could as well have been referred to as one of “the two leading world powers.”

As the American poet John Whittier wrote, “For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: ‘It might have been!’

India’s leaders are ensuring that it continues to be an irrelevant third-world country by keeping it poor. India suffers indignities, and more can be expected when China overtakes the US as the largest economy in the world in a few years. Poverty is like that – not just injury, it also brings insults in its wake. Those who made India poor did not just condemn hundreds of millions of Indians to lives of extreme deprivation and premature deaths, but they also weakened India externally and internally.

India is so weak externally that even a failed two-bit tinpot Islamic dictatorship can cause immense harm to India. Another failed Islamic state – one which India saved from being butchered further by its Islamic brother and helped it gain independence – routinely sponsors terrorism in India and is engineering a demographic change in India’s eastern states. India responds with weak protests.

India is so weak internally that its citizens die by the hundreds each year from Islamic terrorism and all it can do is to run to the US and complain that Pakistan is being bad to India. India whines and asks the US to declare Pakistan a state that supports terrorism. The US, in response, declares Pakistan to be a frontline ally of the US’s “war on terror.” That’s not a slap on the face of India. That’s a steel-toed military boot shoved deep in the head.

All this need not have been. It could have been different. We all know it but we cannot do anything about it. India has been ruled by the Congress for nearly all of its existence since independence. India has been reduced to a rather pathetic state that its prime minister feels grateful for the little attention that the US administration magnanimously throws his way. He, of all people, should know because the family he serves so loyally is the one that has reduced India to this.

The evil they did lives on. The good is vanishingly small and hence really irrelevant.



Categories: China, Lee Kuan Yew, Pakistan, Singapore, United States of America

56 replies

  1. Sad ! But True. Our Hope remain with Modi or baba Ramdev.

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  2. Wow you are completely ignorant about reality in general. “Indira gandhi was outsmarted by Pakis” wow! Go read your history books again

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  3. I think it’s amazing how far India is willing to go to suck up to a kal ka chokra like America. I mean, talk about the Wheel of History!

    This post reminds me of Prof. Varshney’s recent comments on NDTV Profit’s Money Mantra: “India’s relationship with the USA MUST NOT be defined by sole reliance.” How forlorn this statement seems now.

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  4. China and India are opposites. China has an almost homogenous population of Han Chinese who account for almost 90% of the country. There are very few strifes in China going on over territory or language, even those that exist are crushed with an iron hand.
    India on the other hand has always potrayed itself as the weakling, always at the mercy of others. Historically people who are weaklings have a greater chance of survival but they can never be leaders of any kind.
    This gutlessness is apparent in our leadership who are more interested in scoring points rather than in actually making a difference.
    Cut to Modi, why do you think he was denied a visa to US. Was it because of his percieved role in the Gujrat riots, certainly not. America does not like strong leaders or strong countries, because the Americans have gotten too used to being world leaders, or atleast giving the perception that they are the ones in command.
    I wonder if US would have denied a visa to Chairman Mao or to the king of Saudi Arabia who is a monarch and responsible for a country that treats non-muslims like crap.

    At the end of the day if you want the world to respect you, you will have to respect yourself first. Any half hearted attempts to be good will be percieved as a sign of being weak kneed.

    I certainly respect the Chinese leadership that has commited itself to taking China to great heights, while we Indians gloat over the though that we have never attacked another country in the last 10,000 years.

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  5. Piyush, I see that you are feeling hurt at your favourite kangress party being criticised and your favourite facist leader Indira coming up in the conversation.
    May I know why out of the entire article you pick out just one point and forget the most important parts of the article which define India’s standing in the world vis-a-vis China. A case of selective criticism, not to uncommon amogst Kangressis like you!

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  6. i think unless humans are very refined, the concept of *unity in diversity* unlikely be a reality and it actually helps a more divisive nation. Wonder what social *game-theorists* have to say about this context, but I feel there is relevance of the same here.

    What we see is probably a manifestation of this flaw and so called *india rising* could remain a pipe-dream.

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  7. Atanu,

    Excellent article!

    You’ve very well demonstrated where India currently stands vis-a-vis ability to influence.

    However, usually I also think we should not be obsessed with being powerful to dominate others. But here’s another paradox – even to maintain proper sovereignty with hostile neighbors like China & Pakistan, we need to be powerful & assertive. Ideally, I would’ve liked India to enjoy status like that of Switzerland/Sweden/Canada, where most of the people would have all the resources to enjoy life without having to worry about armed conflicts. But given the neighbors we have & our population density, this seems unlikely to happen.

    The older girl and younger boy example you’d given, incidentally applies equally well to treatment of Hindus and Muslims in India by the politicians & media!

    Sundried atheist’s observation of weakling having greater propensity to survive was impressive. Same for reasoning out US’ denial of visa to Modi.

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  8. indira was out smarted by porkis in simla agreement..
    that dimwit who commented should read history..(the non-congress propaganda one that is)

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  9. Hey Atanu! Someone needs to play Venezuela to China. Maybe that role has been reserved for India. Afterall our leaders are not different from Hugo Chavez minus his rhetoric against America, in this case China.

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  10. Kautilya, S.Atheist:

    Piyush is a Hindu name, and the guy, most probably, is a Hindu. And this Piyush represents one of the basic arguments of Atanu all along–

    Hindus are not short of the really ignorant nincompoop types (in fact, there are A LOT of them), who would gluttonously wolf down the kaangresi historical sh*t and vote a blatantly obvious anti-Hindu party to power.

    Yes. We have a rather feeble alternative in BJP, but because of people like Piyush who are high on some inexplicable cong-phrodisiac, the electoral process has lost even that sense of competetion and kaangress has been handed power without much effort.

    Now, Hindus die in bomb blasts, and for those blasts, Hindu organisations are held responsible, Hindu saints are arrested and tortured to extract confessions, and Hindus are having to fight battles on streets (like the recent one in Hyderabad).

    Thanks Piyush.

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  11. Piyush, I am curious. What do you think of Indira Gandhi ? You think she was great for India ? How ? What did she do for India ?

    I really want to know what you think. Please dont be shy to express your opinion.

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  12. There are only 2 things that makes a nation respectable.

    1. Wealth

    2. Military power

    India has very little of 1. and is not allowed to be 2. by its own people and cannot be 2. anyway if it does not have 1. Again, it does not have 1. because of its own people.

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  13. The root cause for congress getting elected is that around 70% of Hindus do not
    vote but just watching the news channels for election results, rest of the 28%
    are totally uneducated lot like Piyush who either sycophants of Nehru clan or
    those who consider the politics as alternative career for earning money,
    1% vote for obsolete ideologies like communist parties and remaining 1%
    vote for viable alternative which hardly could make any difference.

    And this is happening for the last 60 years!

    There has to be complete overhaul of electoral system so that out of 70% Hindus
    who are not lazy but eager to vote but do not have access to do it. But govt. would not let it happen for its own reasons.

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  14. At the time of independence we inherited:
    1) Civilization that is more than 5000 years old
    2) Military power, which British used to rule the world

    Instead of capitalizing on our inheritance, we have been made to feel ashamed about our civilization (Primarily because of Caste, Curry, Cow, or CCC reporting). Our modern leaders reduced our military to a poor shadow of its past.

    What passes in our country as affirmative action, has created more social fissures in our society than anything else. And, what passes on as election is nothing more than a popularity contest where the issues are promptly set aside. Talk about issues/principles with your friends and you are promptly told that it is politics and everything is fair in politics.

    We are in a trap where our population is being slowly poisoned on daily basis, which increasingly feel ashamed about our past, our culture, and our languages. We are racing to the bottom. Before USA respects us, we need to respect ourselves. What we probably need is something like renaissance in our country, where enlightened people loosely form a group and work on Humanism, art, science, religion, and self awareness. What I could get from wikipedia, there were note more than 100 influencing personalities during the renaissance era at any given point in time. The question is how can we get such 100 enlightened people and get them to work to bring such a change in our country?

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  15. Great post. The truth really hurts, but it needs to be told.

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  16. The funny thing Atanu is that most Indians do not think the Indian state is a mediocre, irrelevant state. If you suggest this to them, they call you unpatriotic or get extremely offended, as happened the other day when I was discussing India with some friends!!! I remember people called me a brown sepoy and all kinds of names for just speaking the truth on how India is not known for anything other than poverty and a large population and some technicians who provide services internationally. The “Continent of Circe” as one writer put it.
    As long as they continue in this blissful bovine ignorance nothing is going to change…Hindus have been enslaved for too long, they can’t get out of their mentality…And with the false mythologies imposed by Congress by force upon the state as national ideals, conditions will get even worse…Which State has ever progressed brainwashed into believing in false mythologies created by politicians as India does today?
    Even if there some intelligent people, they don’t carry political weight—
    What India has been reduced to in the last sixty + years is a shame!!!

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  17. Have been reading your blog for a while. Is it me or does it reek of self loathing ? Everything is wrong with India! Or is it really ? Or maybe we don’t know how to play up all that is right like the Americans. Trust me they do, and they really do it really well. That is the culture difference. They like to drum up, market, shine up the bright side. Am not denying they are rich, I am just saying we Indians love to beat our country and its people with a stick.

    Here, blacks are discriminated against everyday. Unless of course they are powerful or rich, just like the muslims in India. Like Bangladesh, illegal immigrants and drugs come in through the porous Mexico border. People are killed with guns and mob fights are common. Hell take away the money and technology and that is equally wrong here or anywhere else for that matter. Yes, money and technology that as someone pointed out is the only difference, no more. And, it can only give you so mjuch happiness no more.

    So stop the self loating please! Maybe follow those Americans and take pride in who you (or gloss over your weaknesses like them)

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    • Sonia wrote, “Have been reading your blog for a while. Is it me or does it reek of self loathing ?”

      I am certain it has to be you who is into self-loathing. Allow me to explain. You claim that you have been reading my blog for a while. It’s too bad you have not figured out what I have been writing about. It is about India’s pathetic state. It’s about disappointment. It’s about hope. It’s about causes and consequences.

      Children so hungry that they are eating mud is not something I can ignore. Did it have to be this way? No. But it is because of myopic, greedy, immoral, corrupt politicians and the political parties, especially the grand-daddy of them all, the loathsome Congress.

      I loathe the political parties and politicians in general. I loathe people who excuse the loathsome acts of the loathsome politicians by saying, “Hey, India is not bad. The US has discrimination, violence, crime, . . .” I loathe the people who migrate to the US for economic opportunity and then say that money is not important because “it can only give you so much happiness no more.”

      If money has its limitations in providing happiness, please check out dire soul-destroying poverty and get back to me.

      Your self-loathing probably arises from the internal conflict you face — that of desiring money on the one hand, and on the other, recommending that India’s poverty is not such a bad thing.

      Sonia (interesting name — perhaps you were named after the Italian ruler of India?), do work on the conflict inside.

      I repeat here my reason for what I focus on in my blog. I focus on the dirt and the filth because I am afraid that if I take it for granted, I will be legitimizing their position in India. The dirt and filth has to be pointed out at every occasion to people who may have unconsciously accepted it to be inevitable. I know that India can do better. I am holding it to higher standards.

      You, Sonia, are the self-loather in this company. Think about it.

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  18. india shot itself in the foot when it exploded the nuclear device,as a result of which the pakis are now comfortable in the knowledge that india will never attack them.so india has no option but to go to usa for curbing pakistan.

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  19. Consider the possibility that the Yanks feel threatened just by India’s latent potential to be a great power, therefore conspire to stunt it’s greatness. 1300 years of slavery has inculcated colossal servitude and stupidity in our racial memory. Another 200-300 years of genuine freedom and sustained Hindu activism could turn the tide! Hopefully,
    the false Nehru-Gandhi shibboleths will be cast aside by that time.
    Islamic demography and Christist evangelism have to be contained now, in order to survive until our racial memory is cleansed.

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  20. Sonia wrote: “Is it me or does [this blog] reek of self loathing?”

    To answer your question, it is you.

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  21. sonia, i don’t think you really understand ‘self loathing’. have you been reading outlook too much? or is it ndtv?

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  22. Ah!! Pains to the core to look at what a huge disaster this country has been. We will reach cloud nine, whenever US throws bread crumbs at us. 10-20 more years of UPA India is finished.

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  23. Sonia says “Here, blacks are discriminated against everyday. Unless of course they are powerful or rich, just like the muslims in India.”

    >>>>>>>>>>Hello, can you give us a few examples of where Muslims are being discriminated against in India

    More pearls from Sonia “Have been reading your blog for a while. Is it me or does it reek of self loathing ?”
    Self criticism is not equal to self loathing. To realise your faults and to recognize them is not called self loathing, it is know as criticism. The next logical step to criticim is to do something about it and not go into these self riteous meaderings like you.

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  24. Atanu,

    I see that you have a brand of cronies who believe that your being anti-congress and opposed to the far left policies implies that you love the BJP and the brand of Hinduism proposed by them or their supporters. I belong to the set of people whom you and your friends don’t like – the secularists. I have two religions in my family and I have gone ahead and espoused a third – Buddhism because I love the idea of man himself being a God that it espouses. Unlike you, I will like to learn about Islam first before condeming it to death. Though I am not comfortable with a lot of your ideas, I respect your right to have them. I believe the real test of education is if it has given you the capability to entertain an opinion different from your own.

    My problem with internet revolutions like yours is that people stop realizing that the causes they espouse need real action on ground and hate speeches on the internet are not going to cut it. You might as well save tigers by joining a group on faceboook. But unlike you I am not going make assumptions and take below the belt hits about what you really do about all that you find wrong. There are causes that I believe in, problems that unfortunately go beyond national boundaries. I used to make speeches in school but have gone beyond that to do something on ground. Nevertheless, I can see that we hardly share ideological ground.

    But, in spite of everything I love the country of my origin, and I am grateful. This I guess is the final difference between you and me.

    And, btw, just so you know Sonia is a Greek name which means wisdom. And I am going to be wise and not comment on your blog hereon. To each his own.

    Sonia

    @ Mr Athiest
    Are muslims discriminated in India ? Of course. They love to be marginalized, be the poorest and least educated section of the society, barely make ends meet, used as a vote bank and once in a while, have their shrines destroyed and their people killed in riots. Excuse me for saying this, but if you behave like an ostrich who buries his neck in sand, the reality doesn’t go away. Hell, I wish it was only Muslims who were treated that way. In a society that is so based on hierarchy, we compartmentalize and discriminate wherever we can – caste, language, gotra. You name it and we slot you. And the culture continues.

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  25. And I am going to be wise and not comment on your blog hereon

    really hope s/he sticks to this. Good riddance.

    have their shrines destroyed and their people killed in riots

    wonder if she’s speaking about kashmir? oh wait but those were hindus!
    my bad. probably case of selective amnesia.

    Unlike you, I will like to learn about Islam first before condeming it to death.

    hehe learn about Islam?.. so did kasab and co. “learnt Islam” in Madarsa. wonder if she can get those in the US.

    But, in spite of everything I love the country of my origin, and I am grateful. This I guess is the final difference between you and me.

    Impressed!!! Clap, Clap, Clap. I need tissues. I have tears in my eyes.

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  26. Atanu –

    I appreciate hearing realistic views about India, instead of the usual delusional talk and I’ve posted a part of this on my blog.
    I do think you’re being a bit unfair to the Indian leadership…by blaming them for what was in those days really pretty much universal indoctrination in Fabian socialism, courtesy of the London School of Economics.

    I wonder what your thoughts are about the entry of kleptocrat bankers into India – Goldman Sachs et. al.

    I hear some other notable financiers are also very optimistic about investing in India, and are targeting retail, refrigeration, storage and distribution..

    Lila Rajiva

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  27. No doubt IG’s administration was horrible. But i think till date, she is the only PM to have had ‘some’ nerve. She wasted all her energy on decimating her opponents and impose total governmental control rather than using the power for progress of this country. Her Machismo was misplaced. Only person to match her in todays context is Modi. Thank god that he has the right ideas.

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  28. Imagine what an Indira who had the right ideals could have done!! Instead she continued on the hopeless policies of her father–it was in her time that the damage to India was greatest because the failed policies of Nehru could have been reversed…but they were continued despite their apparent failures…
    She was a tough woman (and outsmarted the men who put her in power thinking they could control her) but like you said due to a bad childhood she was insecure and could not take criticism and used her energy to kill off opposition…

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  29. Hello

    I came to know of your blog from the blog of Lila Rajiva, who I had interviewed recently for an episode of Santiniketan Podcast that I run as a hobby.

    I read through most of your links and find it very interesting – so much so that I’d request you to a recorded talk sometime convenient, for a future podcast.

    I was born in India (Santiniketan, actually), and lived all over the world, including 7 years in the US, before settling in Canada. Not much else worth talking about.

    Cheers and keep up the good work.
    Santanu Mitra.

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  30. larissa,
    Why don’t you hop on to twitter? Very few women who can take on the secular nonsense on twitter. 🙂

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  31. The schizophrenia of “Sonia” (= Greek Wisdom) is pretty interesting. On one hand she wants to redeem the fair name of India sullied by the self-loather Atanu, but on the other she warms self-loathers’ (as well as Islamists’) cockles with that theory of victimhood of poor Muslims at the hands of evil India.

    Wait a minute. Perhaps it is not India that she is badmouthing with her allegations of Muslim oppression. It’s the evil Hindus she has in mind, perhaps. In which case, she can’t be a self-loather of course. For example, a Catholic Christian running a little hate campaign against Hindus cannot, in all fairness, be called a self-loather. He’s doing only what he is doctrinally required to do. Most every catholic preacher, pedophile or not, is vocally opposed to “social hierarchy”, and his only reason for hating Hindus is, you guessed it, “hierarchy”, (ie, caste). We all know that.

    It’s a pity Sonia won’t post any more. But I’m expecting that Rahul will make a debut pretty soon, followed by Priyanka, and maybe even Indira.

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  32. Madam Sonia pearls of wisdom

    “Are muslims discriminated in India ? Of course. They love to be marginalized, be the poorest and least educated section of the society, barely make ends meet, used as a vote bank and once in a while, have their shrines destroyed and their people killed in riots. Excuse me for saying this, but if you behave like an ostrich who buries his neck in sand, the reality doesn’t go away. Hell, I wish it was only Muslims who were treated that way. In a society that is so based on hierarchy, we compartmentalize and discriminate wherever we can – caste, language, gotra. You name it and we slot you. And the culture continues.”

    Sonia why are you getting so angry, come let us discuss this as one civilized person with another, or rather one civilized man with a brain dead, half crazed hillbilly. Okay which Molem shrines have been destroyed in India, give me a few examples, or have you gotten confused with the multitudes of Hindu temples that have been destroyed in Kashmir by Moslems, or the temples that are being destroyed in Goa and the North East by peace loving Christians.
    As far as ostriches are concerned, I rather have them in stomach than act like them. They taste really yummy, and I suggest you shoul try some when you have the time to do so. In other words when you have time to spare from Hindu bashing and your anti-hindu program, la ineternet.
    As far as gotras are concerned, they are nothing but clans, something you will find in all tribal orders. They relate the supposed origin of a group. Caste in India tend to behance like tribes where the more intelligent or rather r let us say the more powerful tribes tend to dominate over others. So what is so strange about this, its not uncommon in any other part of the world.
    I am sorry to say darling, but you really hate India and Hindus, that’s your problem and that is the reason why you can’t see beyond your bigoted nose.
    As for Muslims being uneducated, well I have seen and met so many uneducated Hindus from the poor families and mind you they are not from your proverbial scheduled castes. If Muslims don’t wish to educate their children in secular institutions and if each Muslim household wants to have its own cricket team then why blame us for that?
    Maybe you should speak to your friends like Imam Bukhari and other peace loving Muslims like him about this problem. ofcourse when on every Friday Muslims are told about the evils of secular education they are bound not to send their kids to secular schools. So its their problem and not ours.

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  33. It’s a pity Sonia won’t post any more. But I’m expecting that Rahul will make a debut pretty soon, followed by Priyanka, and maybe even Indira.

    Now that was funny mate, ROFL.

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  34. I see that you have a brand of cronies who believe that your being anti-congress and opposed to the far left policies implies that you love the BJP and the brand of Hinduism proposed by them or their supporters.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>Sorry darling, you got all wrong. First of all BJP is a shit party and I don’t support it. It has sold out on its principles of a “common civil code” for example. But yes it is certainly far better than the Hindu hating war mongering Kagress party of yours

    I belong to the set of people whom you and your friends don’t like – the secularists.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>Secularists, hmmm. Do you know who a secularist is? Do you even know the meaning of the word.

    I have two religions in my family and I have gone ahead and espoused a third – Buddhism because I love the idea of man himself being a God that it espouses.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>ROFL, Buddhism does not believe in a god. Infact Buddhism says that there is no god and we should not waste our time on “irrelevant” questions like these. Your rant sounds more like the words of an evnaglical born again Christian fanatic. Also help me understand you, you first say that you are a securalist and then you claim to be religious, so which one is it Sonia= Greek for wisdom.

    Unlike you, I will like to learn about Islam first before condeming it to death. Though I am not comfortable with a lot of your ideas, I respect your right to have them. I believe the real test of education is if it has given you the capability to entertain an opinion different from your own.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Well, good for you. We have already learnt about Islam, so I guess we are in a better position to comment on Islam than you are. The real test of education is to show the amount of critical thinking you have, which apparent you possess none. As for opinions, they are just like A holes, each one got one. You can have your opinions but not your facts.

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  35. Atanu, and all the others,

    It is a good thing to debate blogs and comments that cut through meat and reach the bone on issues. But, it is my belief that it is quite another for everyone to pile on in a pack against someone that disagreed with your comments. it eventually degenerates the quality of the discussion.

    I found this thread is turning into a feeding frenzy against Ms Sonia. But there are issues within the blog itself that perhaps deserves better attention.

    For example, Atanu does mention how US treats India and plays Pakistan sometimes against India and sometimes plays India against Pakistan. To me, this is to be expected. USA does not do anything except for its own advantage. I believe many educated Indian’s have a fixation on what the US thinks about India, feeling very proud when it praises India, and very upset when it does not.

    Shouldn’t India learn to take whatever USA says, good or bad, about India, with a healthy pinch of salt, and decide to develop a more balanced view on things ? India should be more concerned about what it thinks about itself, rather than what USA thinks of it.

    Atanu’s analysis is one good way in self-criticism. Lets see if there are others who have different ways to self criticize and if some can offer constructive views on how to address the shortcomings thus identified.

    Politicians are generally corrupt – we can see that everywhere, and not just in India.

    The question is – what does one do about it?
    Cheers folks.
    Santanu

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  36. Oh Sonia please dont go 😦

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  37. You know guys, people like Sonia and Piyush are the majority in India. Did you read the comments in Outlook on Arudhati Roy’s Maoist propaganda piece ? Most were laudatory, praising her to the highest skies. Where do these people come from, I wonder….. well, actually they are all around us. Always have been. Why else do you think India is a poor pathetic country ? Why else do you think Sonia Mata and the Congress have ruled us for the last 55 years and look set to continue to do so for the next 50……

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  38. There is a great response by the famous blogger GreatBong to A. Roy’s piece >>

    http://greatbong.net/2010/04/08/the-invisible-civil-war/

    Atanu, I have been waiting for your response to Susanna Roy…. when is it coming ?

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  39. Ranger, et al:

    I am following the conversation. But I am really snowed in right now. Give me a few more days and I will add to this.

    Thanks all.

    Atanu

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  40. “Excuse me for saying this, but if you behave like an ostrich who buries his neck in sand, the reality doesn’t go away. Hell, I wish it was only Muslims who were treated that way. In a society that is so based on hierarchy, we compartmentalize and discriminate wherever we can – caste, language, gotra. You name it and we slot you. And the culture continues.”

    Head…spinning…must…lie..down…

    Oh the rich irony. Tsk, tsk, Sonia, you really mustn’t hate on the culture that spawned you. It is called self-loathing and it is terribly bad form. Focus on the positives, dear fellow/girl, and ignore the uncomfortable.

    You really don’t get irony, do you?

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  41. Santanu, this is a specific response to what you have said above. Let me submit my apologies if anything that I have said on this page might have hurt your sentiments.
    Now coming to what you said, first of all people like Sonia=Greek for wisdom are one of those hateful people who will pretend to be secularist while at the same time profess love for Abhrahmic faiths. Secularism and faith are two mutually exclusive objects, and in case you profess love for an Abhrahmic religion then even more so.
    Maybe you should go and visit one of the Pseudo Secular website where the most hateful and rabid sort of proaganda is to be found against Hindus. Athough I gave up on belief on any kind supernatural being a very long time ago, I still consider myself a part of the Hindu order specifically because Hinduism gives me the freedom not to believe in God and still be a Hindu.
    So it is in this context that people like Sonia=Greek for wisdom, “piss me off”, forgive my French. i have heard the most vile remarks about Hindus and their anti-secular approah. The RSS is condemed for being facist, without even knowing the meaning of the word facist. The VHP is condemed as anti-minority because it works for Hindu welfare. Then at the very same time these bleeding heart liberals will clamour for supporting evangelicals and Moslem fanatics.

    These very people cry foul when RSS tried to teach Hindu kids about their history and culture and laud the Missionaries for bringing education to the poor. That the missionaries are commiting spiritual genocide on this cuntry’s population is of no concern to them.

    These are the kind of people who support Kangress Party and pretend to be the intellectual variety, when actually most of them don’t even have the basic ability for critical analysis or the ability to read the other argument before they form an opinion.

    So when you are put up against such opponents its sort of difficult to keep your poise. I am sorry Sanatnu, like will be repaid with like and if it hurts someone, I don’t care.

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  42. “But, it is my belief that it is quite another for everyone to pile on in a pack against someone that disagreed with your comments.”

    Santanu:
    Can you point out any lies, half-truths or misrepresentations in the arguments of others against σωυια?

    There is so much accumulated information, so much blatant proof and such powerful arguments against what σωυια says any one person is not enough to counter it.

    On the other hand, if σωυια had a powerful arguing point, she would have been seen still fighting it out with the best of the debaters here.

    But then, open debate has never been a strong point of any other civilisation than Hindu. It is but natural that σωυια ran away claiming higher moral ground.

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  43. Hey Piyush, under Simla Agreement Indira Gandhi had to set free 90,000 Paki POW’s. What did she get in return? Even you would have been more competent than her.

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  44. There’s no point in wallowing in self-pity if the kitchen is hot, Comrade Santanu.

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  45. Hi Sonia,

    You make interesting points. I agree with you that it is undeniable that Muslims are not viewed favorably in India and that there is hostility towards Islam. In fact, this is now becoming a global phenomenon. I wonder why Indians don’t dislike Buddhism or Sikhism or Jainism, but there is loathing of Islam and Christianity. I suspect it may have to do with theology. Buddhism etc have a live-and-let-live policy but Islam and Christianity hate other religions (and also each other). Perhaps this is the root of the problem. I was reading this news report

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100409/jsp/nation/story_12320404.jsp

    and it occurred to me that whereas these church people would be laughed off in Europe, their sufferings are very seriously reported in Indian media. So oppression of Catholic minorities is taken very seriously in India despite the Vatican’s widespread pedophilia. How can we help these non-Indian religions stop hating native faiths? Maybe therein lies the clue to end the terrible oppressions they suffer on a daily basis. What are your valuable thoughts on this vexatious subject?

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  46. Atanu

    Like many others here, I was awash with rage at this uppity “Atanu Dey” who had the temerity to, as I saw it, paint all our leaders with the same broad brush and claim that they were responsible for visiting such misery on India and Indians. Surely, I thought, they weren’t all that bad, given what we “achieved” in the past 60 plus years?

    I was all gung-ho about writing a long post here, ripping your “BS” apart.

    But the more I read this post, the harder I found it counter *any* of your points with facts and logical arguments. And as they say, “if you can’t beat ’em…”

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  47. hey Atanu blog on. All Indians must awaken out of their bovine ignorance of/ apathy towards what is happening. What do you think will make them wake up from their sleep or are they condemned to just fade away in history as an irrelevant peoples?

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  48. Thanks for the link Sudhakar. Only in India can Christians make such demands of the Government. The only other country in Asia where Christians yeild such power is South Korea where the Government mahinery has been used to propagate Christianity.

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  49. Great article. We Indians are really good at analyzing problems and pointing fingers – but really, thats not what we want. What we need, and what no one seems to talk about, are solutions. What’s done is done – our question should now be – what next? How do we fix the current situation?

    Like

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