Catholics consider the pope to be their god’s representative on earth. In other words, anyone who declares himself or herself to be a Catholic necessarily believes that what the pope says about the nature of the universe is absolutely correct. So now consider a few of the current pope’s pronouncements.
Just those few lines explain quite a bit about what’s happening in India. The UPA is headed by an Itlaian Catholic. She is bound by her faith to follow the dictates of the pope, the highest authority in the Catholic church. She in turn dictates to her minions, particularly Mr Manmohan Singh. He, and the other lackeys that she has in her stable, obey.
The evangelisation of India is going on full steam. The northeast is pretty much done. Even Bollywood is getting into the act. “Bollywood to make young Jesus movie (NPR).”
The Associated Press reports that Indian filmmakers were in Jerusalem Tuesday to announce their project. An excerpt:
Director Singeetham Srinivasa Rao says his production will have an all-Indian cast of child actors, featuring seven devotional songs.
Producer Konda Krishnam Raju said at a news conference Tuesday that the film focuses on the childhood of Jesus, a contrast with other movies that depict his later years.
“This is the first presentation of this type in Bollywood history,” he added.
At $30 million, the filmmakers say, it’s one of India’s highest budget movies. An average Indian movie costs about $500,000.
The story adds that there are 24 million Christians in India, suggesting there’s a market for the movie although given the amount of money reportedly budgeted to make the movie, the filmmakers have to be hoping that its appeal will be far larger than Christians alone.
The story also suggests that there are Bollywood movies based on the life of the older Jesus. If anyone out there can point us to some examples, that would be appreciated.
The UPA is headed by an Italian Catholic. She cannot be held responsible for being Italian (very few people have a choice in where they are born), and to some degree cannot help being a Catholic (most of us adopt the religion of our parents). Being an Italian Catholic, she has to follow what her religious authority, the pope, dictates to her. The pope in no uncertain terms calls Hindus inferior to Christians and in the clearest of terms lays it out that evangelisation is not optional.
So let me also spell it out: the UPA head has to promote evangelisation of Indians because it is mandated by her religion.
But let me hasten to add that it is not her fault. I would do the same if I were born an Italian Catholic. The fault, boys and girls, lies with the brain-dead stupid cretinous retarded moronic non-Catholics who vote the Congress party. That group largely consists of Hindus. In effect, these retards are making sure that their heritage is totally lost, that their culture is destroyed, that they repudiate the tradition of their ancestors. These are the real traitors of the motherland, these are the real rapists of mother India.
The next time you see a Congress supporter on the streets, remember that these are the people who are responsible for the dire straits that India is in, and that there is much worse to come if these unmentionables continue to vote the Congress into power.
Frankly, my dears, I am disgusted by the rank stupidity of Indians who support the Congress. They deserve the crap that they endure day in and day out.
Acknowledgement: The images of the former Nazi is from What would you do with £20 million? site which states
On the 16th September, Pope Benedict XVI will descend upon the United Kingdom. The cost of his visit, not including security, is £20 million. Many people in Britain object to public money being spent on this visit, particularly given the abundant wealth of the Catholic Church. Imagine what could be accomplished if this money was spent on a worthwhile cause.
The British are Christians too (not the Catholic type mostly, though) but even they have some sense that the pope must be resisted. Indians? I see that the evil woman “Mother” Teresa is being celebrated in Kolkata. Some Indians evidently delight in wallowing in their own debasement.
Atanu Dey : Life is a Random Draw 
Atanu I agree with u fully. Ignorant Idiots voted for Italian congress, For hindus, Conversions are the boggest threat to hindu majority.
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By an extension of this logic, you should be focussed on the conversion of Muslims to Hinduism because you are a Hindu and one of the Shankaracharyas thinks its a good idea. Is that the best you can come up with, – that Sonia Gandhi is pushing Indians towards Christianity because of her personal faith? Jeez, I know it is your blog and your personal space, but a little proof and / or better logic would be helpful.
Oh, BTW, I used Jeez (short for Jesus Christ) in a comment…. notice the subliminal messaging making you consider conversion? This is an EXCELLENT blog I love reading and I agree with most of your posts and many of your points. But this one is particuarly ridiculous…
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Dear Aaren,
Hinduism is not a proselytising religion and hence a Hindu is under no scriptural compulsion to convert members of any other faith. And to the best of my knowledge Atanu Sahib is an atheist and hence it is your logic that seems more ridiculous at this juncture. Thanks.
Regards
Sunil
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Dear Atanu,
As much as I enjoy reading most of your blogs, I am honestly puzzled why an otherwise rational and fair mind like yours would sound so prejudiced in a few matters. Two issues come to mind- one is the obsessive bashing-up of Manmohan Singh and the other of Sonia Gandhi’s Italian roots. The one on Narendra Modi stunned me.
Surely, you see what most of us can- that your blogs on some of these matters are contrived and heavy on emotion rather than rationality. I find the logic to be childish that Sonia by virtue of being a Catholic by birth is bound to promote conversion. After all- how many of us really follow all the diktats of our religion? Universally- most believers take these with a pinch/lump of salt and abide by our conscience. It is the fanatics that are a minority- really. Even in Islam- your other favorite punching bag.
Religion has its relevance in the world as has been statistically proved- and its a different matter- that like most things on this planet- its a double-edged sword. Dissing something in its entirety is tantamount to throwing the baby with the bath-water.
I guess I am simply wondering at the end of it all- what are you achieving with these rants? If your answer is that its a personal blog and a diary for personal use- then I guess I will treat it as such and nothing more. I would request you to introspect.
Best,
anjali
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Anjali:
I accuse me of prejudice in your comment. I take this accusation very seriously.
For the record, the definition of prejudice (according to the dictionary) is
Please indicate where my opinions of Mr Manmohan Singh, the Italian Catholic, the Catholic church and the pope are without knowledge or reason. So when you wrote that I “sound so prejudiced”, you were perhaps writing loosely. If so, please retract your accusation or else defend your thesis.
As to why these matters are important, I have explained that previously. But I am willing to defend my position again and again. I will do so in a future post. For now, I would request you to point out where I have been prejudiced.
Thank you.
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Sunil,
My point is not whether Hinduism is a proselytising religion or indeed, as you point out, whether Atanu is even a believer or atheist. My point is merely that to acccuse Sonia Gandhi of following the Pope’s marching orders on the grounds that she is Catholic is akin to accusing Hindus in the country of blindly following what the Shankaracharya prescribes or accusing all Muslims in India of personally driving change in their everyday lives based the AIMPLB’s strictures – some people may do so, but not many of them and definitely nowhere near all of them.
Identification with a given faith does not imply a complete commitment and willingness to follow ALL of its practices, irrespective of whether you personally believe these are correct. To make bald statements regarding how Sonia Gandhi’s personal religious beliefs influence her political or social leanings (without proof or indications of proof or, of course, her consent and acceptance of these matters) is, IMO, wrong. As I started out saying, statements of such particularly virulent nature need to be backed with more substantive proof and / or logic before they can be taken seriously – hence my comment that this claim is ridiculous.
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Exactly my sentiments; a large majority of Hindus are motherfuckers.
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The whole issue how i personally look at is that Hindu as a religion does not preach conversions anywhere. The scriptures or the rishis never spoke of conversions. It is sad that many of the Hindus don’t accept this truth under the cover of being educated and rational.
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Aaren,
If you could point out the flaw in my argument, perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion.
For Catholics, the pope is their god’s representative on earth — yes or no?
The pope says that India has to be fully converted to catholicism — yes or no?
The Catholic church spends hundreds of millions of dollars in proselytizing in India — yes or no?
Under the UPA, led by the Italian Catholic, conversions have increased in India — yes or no?
And since you don’t know about Hindus and Hinduism, here are some facts.
Hinduism does not have an organized structure. There are gurus (guru means teacher) but there are no authorities in Hinduism that every Hindu has to take his marching orders from. Contrast this with Catholicism. If you cannot see the distinction, you are arguing without basis.
Hinduism does not believe that there is only one way to achieve the realization of the divine. Contrast this with Catholicism.
Having written that, I think it is futile to argue with you. I have laid out the argument but I am not sure that comprehension is forthcoming. So be it.
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I’ve found your blog to be very interesting up to this point. I can not believe that you would publish statements without citing their source. Can you show that the Pope actually made these statements? If he did, I’m sure its documented somewhere, and would lend your blog more credibility if you quoted it. I have little respect for organized religion, and much less for the Catholic church. As a non-Catholic Christian, with no particular regard for the Pope, I find that the connection you make to Christianity, and the way it operates in this country disturbing. It wreaks of the kind of fundamental attitude that is so similar to the logic Islamic fundamentalists use today — and we all know what that has done to destabilize the world.
First of all, I object to this notion that being Indian Christian amounts to being in some sense more Western, or at least being perceived as less Indian. I am of full Indian blood, I eat Indian food, I dress like anyone else, talk like any other Indian, speak the same languages, enjoy the same movies, but for some reason because I choose to go to a church on Sunday, I am less Indian? Are Hindus who do not go to the temple excused from being less Indian because they were just born Hindus?
Secondly, how does one movie on the life of Jesus suddenly aid evangalization? The evangelics are going to reach where they want, irrespective of any movie. Countless film industries across the world have taken up portraying the life of religious leaders, shouldn’t Bollywood be given the creative license to do so?
As much as I dislike the Gandhi family myself, and as much as I think that the Congress really has been the cause for the state of this country, to draw a link between Sonia Gandhi’s religion and the state of affairs, certainly goes beyond the line of rational thinking.
Secularism is enshrined in this country’s constitution, and it is the responsibility of each religious group to maintain that sanctity. I just can not understand why Hindus like you feel so threatened by the ‘Indian’ way of life by conversions. If India remained overwhelmingly Hindu through the Mughal times, and the British, why feel threatened by a very small section of Christians in this country who try to proselytize? Remember that not all Christians agree with the kind of policies that other groups may espouse. It seems so ridiculous, and smarts of politicking of the most absurd form. Certainly not the kind that would carry Indian forward as a stable, democracy that values concepts of freedom, equality and justice.
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Koshman,
Thanks for your comment. Since you raise many points, it will take me time to respond. As it happens, I am traveling (to Washington DC, just for the record) in a short while and I don’t know when I will get the opportunity to reply. But please be assured that I will reply to this and other comments in a few days.
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The air of injured innocence in these comments is mystifying. The argument is not: “Sonia believes in secularism and peaceful coexistence of religions, hence she won’t proselytize”, but rather: “How can you accuse a Christian of being a religious fundamentalist? I am OFFENDED!”
Comrade Anjali Iyer stands out. A valiant Hindu striking a blow for Christian weal (unless she happens to be Jain or Shinto), she is “puzzled” by criticism of Sonia Gandhi, and in the same breath, “stunned” by praise for Modi. What gives? Well, Sonia is Catholic, hence not guilty even if proven, and Modi is Hindu, hence guilty even if not proved. Validates yet again Oldtimer’s Law, which is a sort of corollary of Godwin’s.
OLDTIMER’S LAW:
=================
“In any internet debate, the most prejudiced, intolerant and bigoted participant is invariably the first person to accuse his/her opponent of being prejudiced, intolerant and bigoted”.
=================
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Thank you for taking the time to respond, I appreciate it. Let me try to point out what, according to me, is the gap I am not able to bridge in your argument.
‘For Catholics, the pope is their god’s representative on earth — yes or no?’ – Yes
‘The pope says that India has to be fully converted to catholicism — yes or no?’ – I don’t know, you dont provide any sources, but I assume you would not make such a statement of fact without basis.
‘The Catholic church spends hundreds of millions of dollars in proselytizing in India — yes or no?’ – Maybe, but please be explicit – Are you making the argument that the church is spending far more on proselytizing in India under the ‘Italian Catholic’ than it did before she came along? If yes, some proof would be helpful. If not, then how is this relevant?
‘Under the UPA, led by the Italian Catholic, conversions have increased in India — yes or no?’ – again, can you be explicit about the point you are making? What does the UPA have to do with this? This sounds (with the greatest of respect) like you are confusing correlation for causation, where is the proof that Sonia Gandhi has managed to cause these changes, if indeed, such changes have taken place?
I will not argue your comments re the differences between Catholicism and Hinduism, except to say that willingness to take ‘marching orders’ from a Guru or for that matter, the Pope is merely a function of strength or fanaticism of belief in the first place.
“Having written that, I think it is futile to argue with you. I have laid out the argument but I am not sure that comprehension is forthcoming. So be it.” – You may be right. I did try to explain myself above, but as I pointed out in my first comment to this link, this is your blog, your space and you are perfectly within your rights to say whatever you wish to feel like saying. Thank you for the courtesy of a patient hearing.
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Aaren,
A simple google search would confirm those proofs that you demand. An extract from this piece by Arun Shourie for your benefit.
“just as in the first millennium the Cross was planted on the soil of Europe, and in the second on that of the Americas and Africa, we can pray that in the Third Christian Millennium a great harvest of faith will be reaped in this vast and vital continent;” (Pope John Paul II, visiting India during Deepavali, 1999)
http://arunshourie.voiceofdharma.com/articles/19991119.htm
Of course, I expect you to come back and demand more proof.
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Aaren,
A quick Google search would confirm those proofs that you demand. An extract from this piece by Arun Shourie for your benefit.
“just as in the first millennium the Cross was planted on the soil of Europe, and in the second on that of the Americas and Africa, we can pray that in the Third Christian Millennium a great harvest of faith will be reaped in this vast and vital continent;” (Pope John Paul II, visiting India during Deepavali, 1999)
http://arunshourie.voiceofdharma.com/articles/19991119.htm
Of course, I expect you to come back and demand more proof.
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Anup, thanks for the link. Please do note: I expressly stated that I thought it unlikely that Atanu would falsely claim that the pope made such statements.
However, I did ask for proof of two things – a) the claim that the Church is spending more on proselytising now that India is being ruled by a UPA government than before and that this has something to do with the UPA being led by a Catholic (Do NOT ignore that second part – it is critical to my question). b) that the rate of conversions has risen during this UPA rule period and that this increased ‘success’ is attributable to Sonia Gandhi’s machinations.
My question is – how do you make the leap ‘of faith’ (forgive the terrible pun) that since conversions are on the increase in India (if they actually are), this is due to Sonia Gandhi’s religious convictions as a Catholic?
Having said all of that, Atanu has made it clear that he thinks it is futile to continue this discussion with me. I am not sure it would be appropriate to discuss this further, atleast on this forum. In case you wish to discuss this further, I am reachable at aarenblogs at gmail dot com.
Thanks,
Aaren
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Dear Atanu,
You usually write excellent articles and I, for that matter wonder why I never thought any of it!! Obviously you are way more talented than me on any scale. Especially when I started reading your blog, mostly about the Indian economy and our nations development and the travesty it is facing. I must fully admit that I don’t have the knowledge, analytical skill nor the excellent and expressive language ability you possess. Still, I would like to make some comments. I am not trying to be hostile, but if it come across as such, my apologies. I am glad to be wrong, that may open the fault in my line of thinking and I may be a little less wrong the next time
From what I’ve read, I feel you’ve a soft corner towards the RSS and its functionaries and a strong dislike towards the Christians. Here are my qualms:
1. Why not clarify a bit more on the factors you claim to an increase in catholic evangelism and resulting conversion is linked? In what direct way (or indirect) Sonia Maino influenced her puppet Mr Don’t-usually-talk-much Manmohan Singh?
2. What is your opinion about the bait-work towards conversion by Catholics? The schools, the jobs and other potential lures? Are they good or bad from an economist’s perspective?
3. I saw someone in the comment saying Atanu Sahib is an atheist; I have a doubt if you are one? Then why are you so vocal and violent about this? Most religions are evil to an extent because of the unscientific and unsubstantiated views on life. I can certify that the Catholic Church was one of the biggest stumbling blocks in the path of scientific progress and they were second to none in human rights abuses in its hey day? But, is this the reason why you are against them? What is the fundamental, most basic reason, from an atheist perspective? I would love to know it, what is the thinking process of a learnt man like yours
4. In this context, how would you like to explain the Indian Constitution? Regarding the rights of free religious practice and propagation? Do you think it needs an amendment?
5. About Agnes Gonxhe Bojaxhiu, a.k.a Mother Teresa. Yes it is true to an extent what you are saying. She did it for the poor because her Lord ordered her that she can save her soul by serving the poor. There was a possessive intent there. But how is this reducing the quantum of work she has done? What would be your feeling had she been a Hindu? Or your opinion of work done by others like Baba Amte?
I would love to see a response from you 🙂
~ SJA
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Interesting development:
http://www.dailypioneer.com/281238/Close-aide-blows-whistle-on-Teesta.html
Setalvad was put in a textbook committee or some such thing by the Sonia government.
Incidentally, one of the reasons why Narendra Modi happens to be a target of Christian fundamentalists (Sonia abused him as “merchant of death”) is that while evangelicals did make some progress converting tribals of Gujarat in earlier years, the advent of Modi government put paid to it due to strict enforcement of law.
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Any data that shows increase in evangelism with UPA regime is reflection of correlation rather than causality. What Anatu is suggesting is causality: UPA governance has resulted in higher evangelism. Its very difficult to prove (right now, the post does not even have a modicum of proof and hence a lot of posts seem to be against the content/big theme).
An alternative hypothesis: The Nehru Gandhi (NG) family wants to hold onto power more than they want to uphold religious values. Given India is a largely populated by Hindus, it is to their benefit to not make religion an election issue (as they have Parsi, Christian and Hindu roots). Hence, NG family would keep away from evangelical activities and Sonia makes a big show of taking a dip in the Ganga/performs pujas at Shiridi etc.
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My blood boils whenever I read Atanu’s blog. He writes about issues I care passionately about and points out exactly what is wrong with our country and our people – why we are a third world country. Truth is bitter and Atanu mostly says it like it is. It hurts. The hopelessness of our situation, the fact that so many of our people are stupid and that we cant do anything about it – hurts.
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Just because Atanu says so it will not become truth. He has to back up all his claims in the original topic with valid data. Agreed, he is a proficient writer and observer. But singing whatever comes to his mind without nothing to support? Come on, you are kidding me?
Just because you have personal reasons for ganging up against a topic, your claims will not turn true automatically. You need to show how you arrived at the conclusion.
(at) Ranger
Third World country? Get your vocabulary right first! All the countries that stayed away from First World and Second World are called third-worlds. [ – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World ]
Maybe you mistook it for third-rate, perhaps?
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jai modiji!
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Atanu:
I sense prejudice when I see someone make a Strawman of their opposition and demolish that. A case in point being this very post- where Sonia Gandhi is being targetted on the basis of such a flimsy argument.
a. It is naive to assume that just because someone is born into a certain religion, they accept every tenet of that faith blindly. Nevermind that there are many interpretations to every religion and that is a subject of reasonable complexity.
b. That anyone’s nationality and religion are the main driving forces behind their actions is not a fool-proof assumption either. Home is where one sets up one’s roots. Actually- even that is not true. Home is where one says it is. I have no idea where Sonia feels at home. The woman married an Indian and has spent almost as much time in India as in her land of birth. She renounced her Italian citizenship and has been an Indian national for the past 25 years at least.
This focus on her being an Italian or Christian is on par with the Obama-bashing in the US on the grounds that he may not have been born in the US or that he has Muslim ancestry. Let’s focus on the real issues instead.
c. That being said, I still don’t see how whatever arguments you present in this post add up to a conclusion that Sonia at the helm is the cause of increasing conversions (even if such a rise in conversion can be statistically proven). Thats pure conjecture.
So, when I see a blog that I expect to be rational and lucid (like most others that I have enjoyed reading here actually) resort to sensationalism and fallacious logic- I wonder. Look at the title of this article for chrissake- ‘The Pope’s minions are furiously evangelising India’ Well, actually- that is old news. The Pope’s minions have been trying to do that for 500+ years. But I do not see how that leads to ‘Sonia Gandhi trying to evangelise India’. Yes, the Pope is judged fairly by you- for making these statements on evangelisations. No problem. You have a problem with Sonia? Judge Sonia for *her* actions. That-is my problem with this post.
I think I have made my point. This is only one of a series of articles that use this method of argumentation. They jarr among the rest.
~anjali
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Atanu,
Your logic’s quite clear, though I fail to understand why some of the commentators don’t see it.
It’s also not a case that one can’t give up one’s religion. Despite the fact that none of my religious ‘leaders’ exhort me to do ghastly things, I identify myself as atheist (so do you, to the best of my knowledge).
If one identifies oneself as newsreader, one reads news. If one identifies oneself as teacher, one teaches. If one identifies oneself as Roman Catholic, one…
If I do not read news, nor do I wish to do so, I do not identify myself as a newsreader. If I don’t wish to teach, or I don’t teach, I don’t identify myself as a teacher.
Yes, one very good doubt’s been raised – of one pertaining to difference between causation & mere correlation (coincidence).
A person suffers from lung cancer. He also smokes. Others who do not smoke might also occasionally suffer from lung cancer. How do you prove then that cigarette smoking is what contributes to (if not causes) lung cancer?
Simple! There’s no causal relation between smoking & lung cancer!
If a nonsmoker had been suffering from lung cancer, & if he/she begins smoking, his/her disease won’t worsen! 😉
But of course, inhaling radon might also contribute to development of lung cancer.
But having made above arguments, Atanu, I strongly believe that to push a religion’s agenda one doesn’t need to belong to that religion. Likes of Mulayam Singh Yadav have gone on to almost support SIMI. But of course, he wasn’t born a Muslim, nor he practices Islam.
I’m not relying heavily on the above exception to make my point. What’s one thing that’s common between religious & political ‘leaders’? That they’re best mind readers & its manipulator. That they themselves don’t believe the crap they talk. It’s obvious that they should see through each others’ stratagems. That itself is sufficient reason that someone as smart (which you won’t dispute that she is) as Sonia Gandhi won’t fall for the Pope’s propaganda. Even if she strikes a deal, it would be a quid pro quo, & not something out of religious devotion.
Pope gets the booty (donations) for showing ‘results’, SG (or whoever is in charge of the country) gets more voters (& of course, money to fight elections) by provoking riots by promoting conversions. And as you know, any riots that media covers are all instigated by the ‘Sangh Parivar’. Who benefits?
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>>Any data that shows increase in evangelism with UPA regime is reflection of correlation rather than causality.
That line of argument is similar to claiming that any data that shows increase in corruption with UPA regime is reflection of correlation rather than causality.
The people at the top are not necessarily seen with their hands in the till; much the same way, they won’t be seen endorsing proselytism either. That would in fact be counterproductive. On sensitive issues like religion and culture, power is used to influence outcomes without being in-your-face about it. The British Raj, much like Sonia, did not overtly help the missionaries along. Macaulay’s biographer wrote of Macaulay’s religious feelings that they did not have slightest taint of fanaticism; a description that “but where is the proof?” comrades can claim for Sonia as well.
But Raj was the period that saw Christianity grow in many regions of the country, though the previous centuries had been dismal failures in terms of soul harvesting. It is unlikely there would be a “Nagaland for Christ” movement today, or that the Reangs would have been driven out of the region for refusing to convert, but for the covert support the regime extended to the missionaries at that time.
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“That line of argument is similar to claiming that any data that shows increase in corruption with UPA regime is reflection of correlation rather than causality. ”
The 2G spectrum case is straight forward case of corruption/incompetence, both of which should not be tolerated in any government. This is a prima face case.
However, if you are arguing that India as a whole (from the clerks, peons, office boys, MDO’s, Collectors etc) has become more corrupt due to UPA regime, there has to be some data that reflects this causality. For example, u can compare difficulty to do business in Maharashtra with Karnataka.
It is important to have a basis for accusations instead of broad brush of SG being a roman catholic. You are just setting for failure (similar to 2004 when SG side stepped the issue of a foreigner being PM).
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>>It is important to have a basis for accusations instead of broad brush of SG being a roman catholic.
The basis among other bases is the studied silence of Sonia Gandhi on the subject. She is not a victim of bashing, as is being cleverly projected; rather she is the most powerful person in the country at this moment. If you want to drive the destiny of a billion people, you better tell us what your beliefs are, and where you stand on contentious issues. Vajpayee once called for a debate on proselytism; that was the moment for her to seize and declare that she opposed the idea as the idea of religious fanaticism. Far from it, she never openly declared what her religious identity is — atheist, Hindu, Catholic, all of them? — while at the same time *seeking out* an audience with Pope John Paul when he visited India. In a predominantly Christian nation JFK was bluntly asked where his primary loyalties lay: Catholic Church or America? Obama had to reiterate recently that he is a believing Christian. Sonia Gandhi is taking Indians for a ride without disclosing where she stands: what has she got to hide? She is like the mythical Muslim liberal: never heard directly condemning the dark aspects of his faith, but in whose name Comrades valiantly defend Islam.
To sum up: I expect nothing short of a forceful condemnation of proselytism from Sonia G if she is zillionth the liberal her (Christian) supporters claim she is. But judging by the record, it seems the likelihood is greater it would snow in Madras than anything of that sort would happen.
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my dear friends. it is time to reject the venal CONGress and opt for PROGress.let us use this forum to launch the agitation for MODIJI’s rule.
jai hind
down down italy
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@Atanu,
While your posts about ideas (economics, religious philosophy and politics) make tremendous sense, sometimes you seem to go to extremes in your criticism of certain people. Seriously, even though I am well aware of Papal fantasies to convert the world to Catholicism, I don’t see the connection between that and Sonia Gandhi as strongly as you have proclaimed. There are degrees of Catholicism, Islam, or any other ism. Sonia could follow very little Catholicism and proclaim herself to be Catholic. Just like many Hindus proclaim to follow Hinduism, but do not actively try to emulate Rama or Krishna or Shiva in their lives (for better or worse). Also many Muslims proclaim to follow Islam/Quran, but do not actively hate Kaffirs (thankfully). You are ready to cut this deal of benefit of doubt of not following their proclaimed religion to the letter to the majority of Muslim and Christian masses (rightfully), but not to Sonia Madame (IMHO, without evidence of her pushing the conversion agenda). Why? Or did I miss the evidence against Madame?
@Ketan
Your argument about newsreaders necessarily reading news is a flawed one. A newsreader can still decide which news to read and which not to, e.g. reading political news while skipping the gossip or sports news. Similarly, a self-identified Catholic need not be into conversion of others, while believing in some other stuff… e.g. Do not covet thy neighbor’s wife or something like that.
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@Sonia bashers
While I have no soft spot for Sonia Madame and Yuvraj Rahul Baba, I seriously do not think that they deserve the blame for what our country has stooped down to (Dynastic rule, puppet PM, corruption etc.). In all fairness, Madame and Baba were out of politics when Rajiv died. Rajiv was out of politics when Indira died. A country of one billion, and a party that ruled most of the independent history of India, could not come up with ONE viable, strong and right-minded leader. Period. Why bash Sonia? What were ***you and I*** doing? Yes, now Sonia is doing her job to perpetuate the dynastic hold by grooming Rahul, because WE gave her the ultimate power.
We have to vow to be politically active. Otherwise, as Sri Sri Atanu Dey ji Maharaj says, “Its all karma, neh?”
(Don’t mind, Atanu… just joking about the Sri Sri thing)
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Togadias galore in the Roman Catholic church:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Islam-will-sooner-or-later-dominate-Europe-Italian-priest/articleshow/6517649.cms
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Amit S,
I get your point, but a newsreader reads exactly what his/her news editor asks him/her to read. So, the default position when one says one is a newsreader is that of faithfully reading everything that the editor directs. If certain newspieces are not read, perhaps specific instances of that must be cited.
I didn’t verify Old timer’s above suggestion about Sonia Gandhi seeking an audience with the Pope. But if that were true, then perhaps it must be estimated, how much respect he & his authority enjoys (despite the kind of exhortations made by him).
I have already stated above that even a non-Christian might use conversions as a political tool to reap benefits.
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Amit S, and yes I fully agree with your other part of argument that it’s the (servile) attitude of the Congress party workers, & fascination of many voters for the light colored skin that’s led us where we are. The G-family’s simply taking advantage of What’s being served to them on a platter.
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Dear Atanu,
I am an avid reader of your blog. This is a great blog. I find your posts on economics, science and the fine arts highly illuminating. I come back again and again to read your posts on economics, science and the fine arts but this is the first time I am commenting on your blog.
When you are writing on religions like Islam, Christianity, Socialism and Communism however, you are extremely intolerant and prejudiced and fanatical and remind me of Osama bin Laden and Adolf Hitler and Attila the Hun. No, I am not saying this because I am a fundamentalist Muslim or Catholic or Communist (I am a Liberal Atheist born South Indian Hindu Brahmin), and no, I am not saying this because your posts on religion scorch my ass (I don’t have an ass, I don’t keep pets).
My point is you should stick to economics, science and the fine arts and leave Islam, Christianity and Communism out of it (except if you are willing to say the good stuff that we Liberal Atheists say about them, that is).
Regards,
Bernardo Javed Pandit
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dear BJP
with your initials, you must support the Bharatheeya Janatha Party, and strive for the stewardship of modiji instead of that rahul baba. please join us in our fight for REAL FREEDOM.
jai hind
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Great piece of irony from BJP! Bravo
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@BJP
The problem with a majority of the so-called “liberals” is that they have never read the Quran or the Bible. And when someone points to the poison against Infidels and women in these books, they bring up Manusmriti, which unlike Quran and Bible, no one reads actively.
So, as long as Muslims and Christians can be Muslims and Christians without striving to follow their respective books to every word, as long as everyone agrees to apply their own mind in accepting or rejecting parts of any philosophy judiciously (and not just “interpreting”), the world is all good and fine. Do the liberals in the room agree?
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“Consider the Catholic Church: This is an institution that excommunicates women who want to become priests, but it does not excommunicate male priests who rape children.
The Church is more concerned about stopping contraception than stopping genocide.
It is more worried about gay marriage than about nuclear proliferation.
When we realize that morality relates to questions of human and animal well-being, we can see that the Catholic Church is as confused about morality as it is about cosmology. It is not offering an alternative moral framework; it is offering a false one.”
… as always, the wise, eloquent and perfectly accurate words of Sam Harris.
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Amit S,
Person ‘A’ might feel: “lot of things in the Book are violent. The religion I was born in is stupid. It was invented only to control people, largely out of ulterior motives”. ‘B’ might feel: “some things in my religious book are stupid. I ought to be careful in following it.” ‘C’ says:“Wow! My religious Books is the God’s True Word. Puny humans have adulterated it. I’m sure, God couldn’t have asked to kill someone for merely blasphemy/apostasy. But yes, adulterers must be whipped, so must be rape victims (as God’s shown so little faith in women, they must always be wrong), and yes, thieves hands ought to be chopped. I will not go against God’s will by using contraception.” ‘D’ says: “Everything in my Book is the Word of God. God speaks to me directly, in my heart. I can feel his presence. He has a grand design for me. Modern man is perverse – has deviated a lot from what God had beautifully planned for the World. All this human rights mumbo-jumbo is a Western conspiracy to suppress the culture God had intended for us. I’ll set things right in this world as long as I live, and would also die in the cause. Doctor performed abortion –> *dishkaon*; Beautiful lady not covering her face & talking to men she’s not married to –> *acid splash*; homeless person stole food to feed children, going against God’s directives of morality –> *chop, chop*; those bloody infidels, they think my God’s not powerful enough, let me show them wrong –> *kaboom*.”
Now, what reason will you offer right from ‘A’ to ‘D’ to point out that what they’re thinkings is right/wrong?
Do we, as a society, forgive a serial killer if he’d have also done ‘good things’? So, shall we judge religious books that contain some of the most reprehensible instructions more leniently only because they also contain some ‘good’ things, which (purportedly) make followers do ‘good’ things?
As long as you offer credence to the idea that religious Books are ‘divine’, ‘holy’ & ‘unquestionable’, there’s nothing much you could do about persons B to D. That’s where the problem with what you suggest lies.
If someone, despite knowing the depraved nature of one’s religion continues to follow it ‘selectively’ for *god* only knows what reason, then, I’m afraid religion’s already succeeded in instilling dishonesty & duplicity, which in itself I consider a problem.
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I agree with Atanu, we all are brought in certain faith esp muslims, christians who are taught as a child only to believe in Jesus and Allah and hate others / call them heathens (if not believe in Jesus)/Kafir or idolator (if not believe in Allah). India has been the victim of such hateful ideologies since 700 Ad. Church has cunningly destroyed all native cultures acrooss the world if we read history unbiasedly keeping away our sentiments same Goes with islam. In 2008 India was defamed for Orissa Kandhamal violence. No one tried to found out the reason.I just read “Orissa in the crossfire” by Mr Brannon parker, He is a native american researching across world on Tribal cultures. He quoted in his preface “I arrived in India in early September 2008. It had been over four years since my
last visit. During my previous trips to India, I had travelled throughout the Northeast part of the country. In Arunchal Pradesh, Assam and Nagaland I had met with many tribal people and was fortunate to gain first hand experience of the culture and conditions prevalent in that part of the country. Northeast India is abundant and
verdant. Its people represent an amazing diversity of languages, traditons and lifestyles. Unfortunately, despite the beauty and innocence of the region it is plagued by political
violence and economic disparity.”
He came again to find the facts of Kandhamal and He quoted in his book on media manipulation page 279″ Such distortions are not new. B.B. Panda the former DG of Police in Orissa told the
Wadhwa Commission that the media completely fabricated information involving him. According to his testimony, the Indian Express newspaper directly misquoted him to make its case against the VHP and Bajrang Dal, “Over 50 people suspected to be the activists of Bajrang Dal and the VHP were involved in the incident and so far 49 persons
have been arrested.”CCCLXXXII The problem with this quote is that it had never been made by the Director General (DG) of Police B.B. Panda. Despite writing the newspaper and directly demanding a retraction, the Indian Express refused to retract the story and ignored his requests. (Wadhwa Commission) Here we see a clear case of direct manipulation of events. Rather than observing and reporting the news, the media took an active role in the events. To the average
reader the words came from Director General (DG) of Police B.B. Panda. The Press is merely the via media. Yet here the media appears to have concocted its own version of events. For B.B. Panda, The Directo r General (DG) of Police, his own words and authority had been used as a political weapon to charge and condemn the Bajrang
Dal, VHP and RSS. It is interesting to note the implication of this act by the media. The very need for the media to plant false quotes condemning the Hindu groups strongly suggests of conspiracy. The very fact that the accusations against the Sangh Parivar rely upon innuendo, false reports and unsubstantiated theories indicates
that there can be no truth to their claims. Despite the thousands of accusations against the Hindu activists, the evidence is sparse and many times non-existent. False testimonials have been created and mythologies expounded. Political theories have been created as the alibis for these myths. This is the foundation of the anti-
Hindu Nationalist forces. Without it there is no authenticity to their claims. Yet even that ‘authenticity’ is based upon a multitude of artificial constructs. Another example of the media’s aggressive hostile involvement is found in its reporting of a tragic event that took place in Orissa in February 7, 1999. Piggybacking upon the Graham Staines murder, the media pounced upon the murder of two Christians. Justice Wadhwa wrote in his report, “The incident again
attracted a great deal of publicity in the media including e-media. Newspapers came up with headings, ‘2 Christians Killed, I injured in Orissa’ ‘2 tribals Christians done to death in Kandhamal’ and ‘Orissa hunts for Christian killers’. Additionally DG P.J. John Nayak
reportedly said, ‘The communal angle to the attempted rape and murder could not be ruled out.’ …a certain political party even blamed the State and Central Governments and stated that the inaction…encouraged miscreants to commit yet another crime in Kandhamal. In short as per various reports that appeared in the newspapers, the incident was to be taken as an attack on the Christians.” Indeed it was an attack. But the truth of the attack was far different than the media’s spin. “Ultimately investigation revealed the crime was committed by a relative of the victims. This relative was also a Christian.” The victims were indeed Christians as was the perpetrator. No retractions were issued and millions of people continue to believe the incident to be one of Hindu aggression. We also find that the media constantly coloring events as religious clashes in complete contradiction of the facts. The December 8, 1998 incident in which some Christian Panas had robbed a group of Kandhas led to sudden conflagration in
which many homes were burnt and at least 2 killed. Despite knowing the basis for this violence, the media floated stories of yet another religious based conflict. Again several weeks later, on February 9, 1999 23 Hindu homes were torched, the media ignored it. The Hindu Kandhas guaranteed response to the burning of their homes was instantly flashed around the world as “Hindu Fanatics Attack Christians”. The initial victimization of the Hindu tribals went unnoticed and unreported. “The unfortunate incident was largely unreported.” Justice Wadhwa observed. More recently, prior to the December 2007 Kandhamal riots, no reports made mention of the VHP, RSS, BJP, Bajrang Dal etc. Then, as if on cue, the media thrust the Hindu activists center stage of the entire Kandhamal drama. The entire storyline changed dramatically. The long term conditions and underlying causes were all forgotten as the crisis was forged into a political weapon by the media and politicians. The authentic obstacles and stumbling blocks to peace were given short notice.
The social foment created by the Indian media and Leftist elite has created a new and modern form of prejudice that is just as ugly and inhumane as any other. It guises itself as a socialist humanitarian concern for minorities yet paradoxically, it is biased against millions of the Hindu majority. It’s an arrogant assumption that
allows for the instant damnation of any act in the name of Hinduism and the adoration of any act in celebration of anything else, just as long as it not Hindu. It is straight out prejudice. Yet with the media’s constant cacophony of accusations the prejudice is rationalized as a sign of secular and social concern. India’s media downplays authentic threats and dangers to the people. It demonizes
any attempts at self reliance and security. Thousands upon thousands of Indians “. The self appointed guardians of Indian secularism have built careers upon a foundation of accusations leveled against India’s traditionalists. They act as the embedded overground voice of the murderous underground. They do their part to target the very groups that act as obstacles to the nefarious intentions of the Maoists.As the Maoists murder their physical bodies, the mainstream media and the Leftist elite savage their reputations. There is a phenomenon in this. We find that the Maoists, Islamic Jihadists, the Communists, the Christian Church, the Congress Party, the Indian media and Pakistani military and leadership all speak with one voice when speaking of the RSS and the overall Hindu Traditionalist’s
organizations. This was made imminently clear when the Orissa Maoist leader Sabyasachi Panda leader made his statements ‘confessing’ to the murder of Swami Lakshmananda. His vitriol against the Swami, the VHP and the RSS is a carbon copy of the words and propaganda daily regurgitated by the Indian media, Congress Party, Communists, Left wing thinkers and writers, Christians and Muslim leaders
and by the Pakistani and Bangladeshi Press and political hardliners.
As the war against India rages on a native response has arisen. Yet this native response is pilloried and demonized. Ironically the Secular Leftist apologists constantly invoke the image of ‘a people driven to desperation’ by overbearing Hindus or police actions. However their logic falls flat and does not extend beyond their
artificial construction. For if desperation and oppression can drive a minority to activism it could also be a factor towards the development of the very same Hindu activism they condemn. In other words, the idea that millions of Hindus have become active supporters of the RSS, VHP and BJP cannot be based upon mere chauvinism but rather it is based upon authentic concerns. The threats to Hinduism
are obvious and the response is an attempt to deal with these real dangers and predicaments. This response has been effective in thwarting the schemes of those inimical to India’s progress. The enemies of India recognize the Hindu activists as the greatest obstacle to the fulfillment of their schemes have died at the hands of Jihadists and Maoist terror attacks. The media not only downplays these attacks, it rationalizes them. During the September 13, 2008 Delhi bomb blasts news reporters became virtual mouthpieces for the terrorists. As Delhiites lay in their own blood, the media spouted the perverted rationales of the terrorists. Beyond that the media theorized that ‘the blasts are a response to police efforts
against terrorism’. It was a stunning statement made by a callous and sinister media. One can only wonder if indeed the media is in the control of the very same groups terrorizing the people. Similar to the psychotic killer’s use of media as a follow up to his mass murders, Indian media gloats upon the ongoing terror. It has lost any sense of social responsibility. This same media wastes thousands of broadcasts hours on promoting the inane thoughts and words of allegedly concerned socialists and human rights group representatives. Yet these same individuals or organizations are absolutely silent about the Maoist atrocities and acts of terror. Rather they focus on the alleged danger of Hindu fundamentalism as the greatest danger to society.Somehow these intellectuals ignor the statistics confirming the actual perpetrators of mayhem. The body count says it all. But in secular India buildings are more precious than human lives.”
Today in India media is not pillar of democracy but a burden of democracy serving in self intrest of wealthy working against the Indian nation and interest of its own people. people must read read book on “Orissa in the crossfire” to know what missionaries, vested interest people are destroying indian fabric of religious tolerance on the name of Jesus with the conspiracy of church media and politicians. Further this book is written by an american and a christian so you can not call it a sangh parivar agenda. All facts evidence are in place . It can be downloaded at http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/orissa-in-the-crossfire-kandhamal-burning/6046402
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I agree with atanu dey to know How foreign funded missinory activity are destabilising india and its peace please read “Orissa in the cross fire b Mr Brannon Parker. Having long held an interest in the world’s native cultures he longed to explore the indigenous tribal cultures of India. He soon began traveling to India making frequent visits to the tribal regions of India such as Nagaland,Assam, Arunachal Pradesh and Orissa.
His book was a result of his long 3 months fact finding mission on Orissa violence, presents all facts, media bias/distortion etc. It can be read at http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/orissa-in-the-crossfire-kandhamal-burning/6046402.
Rest is up to people to decide on truth. As i have been a witness to this conversion activities so i know.
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@Ketan
Yaar, I like how you have worded these scenarios. I know why you prefer only scenario A. But, in my mind A and B are fine, but C and D are not. The difference between A/B vs C/D is the belief in divine.
The reason why B is fine, and why someone might want to adopt that is because a lot of cultural stuff emanates from B type thinking. And, I think culture makes the world colorful. For example, voluntary harmless activities emanating from religion, such as fasting during Ramadan or Karwa Chauth is okay… as long as there is clear knowledge that not fasting is equally morally okay, and there is no divine diktat for fasting. Belief in divine diktat and activities harming others is where I draw the line.
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I sometimes find oldtimer’s comments more ‘entertaining’ than Atanu’s posts. Do you happen to have a blog of your own, Oldtimer ?
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@Atanu
I’ve read quite a few posts on this blog from you and I appreciated your very rational and dispassionate take on the issues facing us today. Wonder what happened to this article! It’s almost as if someone else had written it.
1) “So let me also spell it out: the UPA head has to promote evangelisation of Indians because it is mandated by her religion.”
I have heard this vitriol many a times in the past from the Hindu right-wing loonies. I had asked many of them to produce some evidence (any evidence) to suggest that a) Sonia Gandhi is actively seeking to convert people to Christianity and b) the whole of Congress party is obeying her dictates without even once questioning or challenging her! I invite you too to produce anything that could back up this claim.
2) These are the real traitors of the motherland, these are the real rapists of mother India.
Don’t you think that this is extremely irrational and emotive? There isn’t a “mother” that could be “raped”!
Yes the Congress party has misgoverned India and its socialist ideology is not the best we deserve in this day and age, but should you be targeting them on these issues instead of making ridiculous allegations that only ends up making you look like….. well, one of the loonies?
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@Atanu
I have only recently stumbled upon your blog and I like to read what you have to say. You are very rational and very dispassionate about the issues that face us. Wonder what happened with this article! It’s almost as if you haven’t written it!
1) “So let me also spell it out: the UPA head has to promote evangelisation of Indians because it is mandated by her religion.”
I have heard this from many Hindu right-wing nuts who have run out of every other argument against the Congress. And I have asked each one of them to give some evidence (any evidence would do) to suggest that a) Sonia Gandhi is actively seeking to convert people to Christianity and b) the entire Congress party is working to her dictate without even once questioning or challenging her!
Agreed that the Congress has mismanaged the country and their socialist ideology isn’t the best we should have in this day and age but don’t you think that you should fight the Congress on these issues instead of resorting to this childish propaganda? Because frankly, it doesn’t sway many people and it only makes you look like….. well, one of those nuts! (which I am certain you are not!)
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What if an evangelist knocks on your door asking if you’ve heard Good News? Pat Condell has some ideas:
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As is to be expected, no reaction from the country’s prominent Catholics, most importantly Sonia “Gandhi”. The Church got to be obeyed by the faithful, after all. I am expecting that some of them will brazen it out and defend the Church, couching their defence in a ‘secular’ argument.
http://gulfnews.com/news/world/india/church-circular-supports-decision-to-sack-professor-1.681063
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Yet another day passes, and I search online news once again in the vain hope that some prominent Catholic has condemned the Church’s senseless act: “Father” Cedric Prakash of the Gujarat Human Rights industry perhaps; or the Christian Persecution Expert John Dayal maybe, who the non-proselytizing Sonia “Gandhi” elevated to NIC to help maintain communal harmony, or even, why not, Sonia herself… But nope, the news disappoints me.
This boggles mind. I mean, here was an opportunity comrade(s), that could emphatically prove your theory that not all faithful follow the dictates of their religion. There is no evidence provided for that theory, though at the same time you have been demanding “evidence” to show that the said Gandhi follows her Church on the matter of proselytism. The hand-chopping incident could have yielded evidence supporting your claims. Lots of liberal Muslims and Catholics could have come out condemning the thugs who chopped the lecturer’s hand, and the thugs who sacked him from the college. The absence of it all provides the counter-evidence that your theory maybe bogus, after all.
The Catholic Church claims itself to be the custodian of Christian virtue, and Christian compassion. The speculation all around is that the church’s Jospeh act is anything but a display of compassion; in fact, that it is a political maneuver. Apparently Muslims and Catholics are now the mainstay of the Congress-led UDF (patron saint: Sonia), so the “unity” must be maintained at any cost. The Church’s calculation is that its move would please Muslims…!!! No Muslim, or Catholic is stepping up to prove the Church wrong. Liberals galore.
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Amazed to read this bigoted post from an economist. You are taking the usual bigot route – kill the messenger but not the message.
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I dont think any other community in India other than christians would take to destruction of their place of worship by people of another community. Given the fracas over Babri Masjid, the behavior of the christians is exemplary in this matter.
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Have any so called liberals criticized the pope or countered church’s proselytization drive? No. So why call others the bigot?
When you approach someone for proselytization you are effectively saying “Look I believe you religion is not right for you, why don’t you change to mine?” That in itself is intolerance. If all religions are equal in secularism then why the need to convert?
Also after World War-II, jews had no country of their own to go to. So naturally indian origin faiths would want to keep their country to themselves (in majority). There is nobody to speak for us and no place for us to go to if persecuted again by either of the two middle-eastern faiths known for their intolerant stand to other faiths.
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