“India funding Pakistani jehadis” prompted Dan to comment:
Couldn’t you make the argument Indian charity and compassion during Pakistan’s time of need might make a positive impression on at least a few Pakistanis. Maybe the aid provided will change a couple of hearts and minds and they will be less likely to “throw a bomb over your fence.
Dan, unless you are kidding, your naivety is touching. If $25,000,000 were to change a couple of hearts, then to change the few hundred million hearts that need changing would require a brazillion** dollars (which is more money than the entire debt–foreign and domestic–of the United States which is merely in the order of thousands of billions of dollars.)
Dan, Pakistan military policy is dictated by the Pakistani military. Heck, everything there is dictated by the military. With the exception of a few years, Pakistan has existed as a military dictatorship its entire existence. So what the average person feels does not amount to a hill of beans. But even if it were otherwise and the average person were given a choice, I am not sure if that average person would not choose to eat grass if that meant “the infidel nation of evil devil-worshipping” Hindus could be wiped off the face of the earth. Pakistani leadership have gone on record and promised 1000-year jihads against India on several occasions. Assuming that these 1000-year jihads run concurrently, I would say that they have about 950 years of jihad left against infidel India; if the promised 1000-year jihads don’t run concurrently, then kuffar India has about 3000 years of war coming to it.
You may say that as an infidel idol-worshipping Hindu, I am being overly paranoid. Perhaps I am. But even as we debate my paranoia, Pakistan is acquiring $5,000,000,000 (that is five billion dollars) worth of F16s from the US. And all sorts of other military hardware which you can bet it is not going to use against Afghanistan, or China, or Saudi Arabia, or Iran, or the republics of the former Soviet Union. The target, dear Dan, is India.
My ancestors, being polytheists, were the target of dreaded Islamic invasions led by people bearing names such as Babar, Mohammad of Ghaur (Ghor), Mahmud of Ghazni, Ahmed Shah Abdali. These worthies have gone but their legacy lives on. Pakistan has named its ballistic missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads after these invaders who came to destroy India. These are not targeted at Saudi Arabia or China or Afghanistan. These missiles are aimed at Mumbai and New Delhi and Bangalor and Nagpur (my home town) to finish off what their namesakes left unfinished centuries ago.
Coming back to the point about India funding Pakistani jihadis, let me repeat the main point which I put at the top of my last post: MONEY IS FUNGIBLE.
It does not matter what you send the money to Pakistan for. As long as Pakistan is funding terrorism worth more than $25 million, then the entire amount that India gives as charity can be considered to go into funding terrorism. Here is the arithmetic. If Pakistan were only spending $10 million on arming terrorists and itself to destroy India, then sending $25 million to them would mean that India was funding the destruction of India to the tune of $10 million and the remaining $15 million is for, say, feeding the hungry. But if Pakistan is spending $5 thousand million on buying weapons to destroy India, then India sending $25 million to Pakistan can be seen as contributing half of one percent of the cost of destroying India, and none of it goes into feeding the hungry. In other words, it is a stupefying act of astounding idiocy.
Just in case my argument is not entirely clear about the fungibility of money, let me put it this way. If Pakistan were to just buy one F16 less from the US, it would have an additional 100 million dollars to pay for the rehabilitation of those affected by the earthquake. As long as they have money to buy weapons, they really don’t need charity from the country that they have sworn to destroy.
Here is a clue to the Indian government which I offer gratis: Charity begins at home. If you care to look into the slums of New Delhi, and in the rest of India, you will find hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris who have been ethnically cleansed from the state of their ancestors. Try giving them $25 million first, you clueless retards.
** [Brazillion is a very very humongously large number. The genesis of the word goes thusly. President George W Bush was told that in a military encounter three Brazilian soldiers were killed. He bowed his head in stunned silence. His aides were rather puzzled to see the show of emotion. Then he raised his head and asked, “How many exactly is a brazillion?”]
[Final Part of this series: Part 3 of India Funding Pakistani Jehadis.]
Atanu Dey : Life is a Random Draw 
Well said Atanu!
BTW Your blog is brilliant…
Cheers,
Cyrus from Sydney
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Although your concerns about India’s aid offer are justified to some extent, the rhetoric of your post is some what icky. Terrorism cannot be equated to conventional warfare. If we could solve the issue by destroying terror camps, a super-power like US won’t be having trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We need to target hate, period. Hate can’t be countered by weapons. To counter hate, one needs goodwill gestures. Probably that is what India was trying to target when it made that offer.
Remaining fixated to history (modern, medieval or ancient) hasn’t helped our nations so far, nor does rhetoric based on the same.
Atanu’s response:
“Terrorism cannot be equated to conventional warfare“: I thought that the competition for non sequiturs was over. No one made that equation.
“We need to target hate, period. Hate cannot be countered by weapons.“: This one comes in second in the non sequitur contest. No one is arguing that hate can be countered by weapons.
“Remaining fixated on history … hasn’t helped our nations so far …“: Remaining ignorant of history has helped even less. How many gestures of goodwill has backfired so far in dealing with just one Pakistani leader, Mr Musharraf, not to mention the entire line gang including the Bhuttos and Sharif?
Finally, do you really not understand that charity is all very fine if the person you are charitable towards does not have the resources to help himself, but if the person is spending money on buying weapons to wage war on you, you have no obligation to feed his children whom he deliberately starves in order to pay for weapons?
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Hello Atanu,
Terrorism off-course cannot be equated to the kind of conventional wars which have been fought in the past.
Terrorism is the new modern age war which criminal, rogue states are using against their enemy states with whom they do not stand a chance in an officially declared conventional war.
Hate off-course cannot be countered by weapons. But Hate can be effectively countered by destroying the weapons of the haters and never allowing the haters any access to weapons of mass destruction. Israel learnt this lesson way back in the 1960’s while it has been 58 long years for us and we still haven’t learnt any damn thing. We have allowed this criminal state to not only build its nuclear power but also acquire all the delivery platforms like Ghauri and Ghazni which are made in China. The latest delivery systems in their arsenel are the F-16’s.
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The recent serial blasts in Delhi have proved your point. Excellent analysis !
Anunad Singh
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If money could buy us peace, I guess even $25b would not be too expensive. But given the structure of power and society in Pakistan, I do not think even $25b will buy us peace.
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My head hangs in shame that our politicians are so misguided (Rather are intentionally misguided) and want to flaunt Indian Taxpayers money at United Nations forum. It is so sick that on one hand they beg for funds from UN for development and other hand give away loads of money to our “FRIENDLY NEIGHBOUR” who will remain so forever. If there is anyone amongst the readers who is a lawyer then I would urge him/her to file a Public Interest Litigation against such anti national steps of the Central Government. On what grounds does Indian governement extend help to Pakistan which has been responsible for killing innocent Kashmiris and our Indian soldiers who bravely protect the LOC. My question to all so called liberal Indians is simple – When the people who killed Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi were punished to death so quickly, why are the murderers of Indian soldiers left at bay for so many years ?? Not just that…we’re giving them all the warmth and support possible under the sun in honor of killing our bretheren. What else can we expect from a sycophant Congress party that doesn’t even understand meaning of patriotism and national interest,obviously Italian interests would be of more priority than preserving the hard earned freedom of India.
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Random Draws,
First and foremost, the Pakistanis postponed their purchase of the F-16’s in order to devote those funds to earthquake relief so we can just leave that aspect of your argument alone for now.
I’m an American so I admit; I have little knowledge or understanding of causes leading to the tension that dominates the relationship between India and Pakistan. And by no stretch of the imagination do I think $25 million dollars is going to change the strategic context of the relationship between the two countries. My point was, change has to start somewhere. It’s going to take time, it’s going to take effort, it’s going to take sacrifices and compromises and an enormous amount if political will by both sides. But what is the alternative? Nuclear war, conventional war, unending instability in a vital region of the world. These are not acceptable alternatives.
The fight for the soul of Pakistan is essential to the security of the world. I think it’s in the world’s interest (including India) to see a stable, democratic and yes, militarily capable Pakistan. Let’s be honest Pakistan is still no match for India in a conventional military sense. So if things ever get really bad again, Pakistan might not have a choice but to go nuclear against India…. The fact you haven’t considered that demonstrates your naivety, not mine. Is Pakistan going to transform over night? Of course not. But just to give up and say there is no point in trying to change the strategic context is short sighted. India and her people have a very bright future ahead of them. Mismanaging their relationship with Pakistan will only darken that future.
On an unrelated topic…somebody talk to me about India and China…I need some education on the deal between those two countries….Okay I need some education on a lot of things but lets just start there!
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Dan, you are looking at the situation purely from the perspective of the need for stability in the region. Your concern and disagreement as I understand, seems to be the impact of a nuclear war and destability in the region to the ROW and not on the fact that Pakistan is using its resources to fund terrorist activities. Why don’t you change your point of view and look at this from the point of view of the 200 million (*) odd hungry and uneducated Indians who don’t know where their next meal comes from, who don’t have skills to ensure a stable life for themselves.
Managment of taxpayer money is the responsibility of the government, and ensuring a fair and equitable distribution of the available resources is one of their jobs. When the government lands up relinquishing limited resources which could otherwise be used to provide basic amenities to the hungry and impoverished in India, it is failing to do its job. When the government is handing over these resources to a country which is using these funds to support terrorist activities, not only is it failing in its job, it is in effect helping support these activities.
Your point that change has to start somewhere can only be supported if there is adequate will and effort from both sides. Pakistan has funded terrorism for decades and has given no indication whatsoever of stopping the same. I don’t think anybody can ever classify the act of supporting terrorism as an indication of any will or effort towards peaceful conflict resolution.
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Dear Dan,
This is in response to your post.
Peace is essential. Peace is good. Peace is one of the most valuable assets of daily life because it is only in an environment of Peace can a society function and be creative and productive.
Your stress on peace between India and Pakistan is very correct. But somehow, I think you are disconnected with certain realities. I would list them for your information.
>> Pakistan started its proxy war of terror against India around 1989 with Kashmir as its front. From 1989 to September 11- 2001, it was the most successful proxy war fought anywhere in the world, were they could kill Indian soldiers and civilians with very few losses of their own.
>> On the morning of September 11, the world changed. It need not be mentioned why,
I am sure you know why. The Pakistanis had to change their strategy vis-Ã -vis India, as after 9/11, terrorism became untenable.
>> The Pakistanis now seek peace and are in negotiations with India. But they classify Kashmir to be the “core issueâ€, which Indians don’t. There can be no meeting point as long as the Pakistanis hold on to this view.
>> You have stated — I think it’s in the world’s interest (including India) to see a stable, democratic and yes, militarily capable Pakistan —-.
The peace that Europe had post World War II came by the defeat and disarming of Germany. I would say the same condition holds here in the Indian subcontinent.
>> —- if things go really bad, Pakistan might go nuclear against India—–.
You are right on this one. The Pakistanis are not bound by any policies of “no first use†as the Indians are. But do give this a thought. If the Pakistanis use nuke against India, WOULD A COUNTRY CALLED PAKISTAN REMAIN ON THE WORLD MAP.
Now that is a verrrry big ?
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I applaud you, Atanu, for being bold and for calling a spade a spade without worrying about the “fake” secularists in India.
What puzzles me is how many terrorist strikes (such as the Delhi Bomb, Parliamentary bombing etc.) and lost lives it would take for Indian Government to act decisively to either force a UN resolution to demand that Pakistan stop crossborder terrorism or at least strike the terrorist camps near the LOC.
Why is there no will? Is it because of lack of courage or commitment or fear of the “easily-fooled-by-Pakis” US of A?
A concerned Indian.
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Atanu Dey:
You really showed how ‘money is fungible’.
Well I have nothing against you and India; I never had bad encounters with ’em – and have enough Indian(including: Hindu) buddies.
But just wanted to opine; blaming others and holding ’em responsible for what they might do to India is a stupefying act of astounding idiocy.
I know you also held Indian government responsible for the $25 million they (as per say booned for their own destruction) donated by calling ’em “retards” – but it’s like ‘fix yourself first and then point fingers’.
Endeavor yourself to think positive, rather than negative. Frankly, you never had a positive approach in the whole summary. I don’t know what might the world do, but ‘success is equivocal if you enact a pessimistic approach.’
No offensive intended Atanu 😉
-Regards
Atanu’s response: Waqar, I suppose Indians are supposed to just quitely suffer Pakistani-funded Islamic terrorism instead of pointing out the absurdity of the idiotic Indian government sending millions of dollars to Pakistan which will be used to kill Indians.
Here is what I would do if I were the Prime Minister of India. I would send Musharraf a letter saying that he cut back on the buying of weapons to kill Indians and instead re-direct some of it to feed his starving millions. As a Pakistani, which part of the recommendation do you disagree with? Is it the part about investing less in the destruction of infidel Indians or is it the part about helping the poor in Pakistan?
Once again, money is fungible. The Indian government should stop sending money to Pakistan to fund the jihadi groups; instead India should use that money to feed its hundred million starving children. So also, Pakistan should stop using money it does not have in supporting terrorism against India, and instead of buying F16s, it should feed its starving millions.
The Indian subcontinent — Pakistan, India, Bangladesh — are a disaster area not without reason. Its leaders are an ignorant, greedy, stupid, unenlightened group of thugs as a class. What little distinction exists is solely due to the fact that while nearly the entire population of Pakistan and Bangladesh are hell-bent on regressing to conditions of 7th century Arabia, the majority of the Indian population would like to live and let live.
I apologize for hurting Pakistani sentiments, but believe me as an Indian, I find it immoral to keep quite when thousands of Indians are being killed and the Indian leaders are complicit in that killing of Indians.
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offense 😉
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Atanu:
I understand; you have valid points which I adhere to, like: cut down on the F16s supply, and shouldn’t have donated $25 million.
It makes sense; but the whole dogma of Jihadi’s and Pakistani administration funding them is baseless unless you give me sufficient evidence to believe it.
Also, the assumption that Pakistan will bomb India is ridiculous. Again – it’s unpersuasive. People don’t realize that everything portrayed in the media doesn’t necessarily has to be true.
I respect your views and have emotional affinity towards your sentiments – but I still believe that there’s a reverenced approach to the whole predicament.
-Regards 😉
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The follow up post was even better. I’m in complete agreement with you
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I read waqar’s and Atanu’s comments and had this to say.
Atanu – Well very articulation of thoughts. I have lived in India for most part of my life (janmabhoomi) and am now in US (karmabhoomi). All i can see is the difference between how we and others see India. And mind you, though i never buy anything made in Pakistan( you get enough of that stuff here. specially clothes), i do have pakistani friends. I am not the best of friends with them, but atleast i am courteous and they are the same too.
We see India as a self confident country, where people strive to learn, educate themselves and their children and progress in life.
Others see India as a overconfident country, where politicians do not follow their advice (read politicians from developed countries),and that India is a strong country. The PR policy of pakistan must be highly commended for establishing a positive image in the minds of the western world. Indians suck at PR. One reason is we believe that we should stick to morals and just do the right stuff. Some day people will see and distinguish between right and wrong. Now we are in 21st century or i should say kalyug. It does not always happen that way.
India gets attacked and we raise our tone and quieten down in a few days. We get some calls from foreign dignitaries, and our so called newspapers print them as if they are the sole powers and we are stupid bunch of people who must listen to them. Every country has a fundamental right to security. Heck, every person in the globe has a right to defend himself when attacked. What has india ever done. Nothing – we drive them away at the cost of getting our soldiers killed, and there is nothing done to ensure that the perpetrators feel the cost of waging wars against India continuously. The US or Europe does not understand that all these jehadists come from a land where education is suppressed(only religious education is provided), and some of the religious education is taught wrongly to them since those teaching such things have a message of hate.
There is a bond between US and Europe (especially “white” countries), that they may feud internally but when it comes to the third world, just do what is in their interest. It may not appeal to their morals or the morals of even the christian religion, but they do it. Hence they support pakistan. They feel that india is not going to listen to them anyways. So to control india (economically only, since militarily we have never attacked any country), they need to have an alternate power. They supported china, which is now against them, but chinese respect education too. That’s why they have prospered as well. But pakistan does not understand that, and thinks that kashmir is their only goal. But it cannot comprehend that two countries can live next to each other in prosperity. Violence NEVER brings peace, and peace NEVER is the precursor for violence.
Only if it allowed its citizens to learn, grow and prosper in life will it understand how stupid it is for the long term interest of pakistan to allow the jehadists to grow and operate on their land.
India on the other hand must have a united (political) declaration that any act of injusctice caused against it will have effects of a military solution on the perpetrator. What if some more of us have to die. Atleast we will end the menace for once and all. Secondly, if the people that fight us understand our stand, and back off, atleast more part of south east asia will live in peace.
When there is a bomb blast in india – it is by freedom fighters (claimed by musharraf on washigton post interview and CNN), but if it is in any other part of the world, it is terrorism. How can the world have two seperate notions. India should stop responding to any attacks on any countries, and mention that it is their policy and situation. If the world does not care about us, india should not care about them and just keep quiet. Don’t give a negative reaction but also don’t give a position one. Let them understand how difficult it is for us too to see our people get killed in the name of freedom.
Any solution if it has to be military must be – fight for freedom and equality.. not hate.
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Human Rights Watch on the Pakistani military’s handling of quake aid money.
http://delhi1029.blogspot.com/2005/11/more-from-atanu-dey.html
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Spot on!
The point of the peaceniks and the West is of improved relations due to 25million$$ being given. I cant fathom how hate can be just weaned away with money? The only way it can be weaned away is with cutting at its roots, and its main propaganda.
I wonder if any of those who propose that funding 25million$$ worth of Jehadis would have also proposed that the USA/West fund any of the Soviet Bloc members, or China (pre ’71)? Or would they propose that the West wean the Taliban or Iraqi Insurgents off killing/terror, with money?
How can sane men say that it makes sense to send money across the border when there are widespread reports of the Pakistani NGOs(except for those tied to Jihadi groups) and Govt doing precious little?
And Waqar :
“but the whole dogma of Jihadi’s and Pakistani administration funding them is baseless unless you give me sufficient evidence to believe it.”
Wow! Sufficient evidence. Muridke could be a start, as would be the book written by Amir Raza(not sure of the name) on A-Z of terrorism/Jihad. or the “Jihad Factory” published by ORF
PS: apologies if the HTML is messed up, not very familiar with it.
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